The debate over whether an artist’s art should be considered in the context of their actions and crimes is so weird to me. Can someone really watch a Woody Allen film now and not think of his grossness? Or listen to Michael Jackson and disregard his perverseness? And the list goes on and on. I for one, cannot, and I think that until we are unwilling as a society to be complicit in our failures to protect children and to disavow all sexual crimes, this debate will continue. I think it says something about our collective willingness to sweep things under the rug. Which we do in all kinds of ways. But which never serves our integrity.
100% it’s just like the spiritual bypassing bullshit when a so-called guru or spiritual leaders gets caught being an abuser and I hear honor the teachings not the teacher, they’re just human. Bullshit. I called someone out on this yesterday. If the teachings are good and graceful and someone has been studying them for decades and teaching them, yet still cannot act in accord and not cause harm than the teachings are either not very good or made up by the abuser to attract people.,
yes, it seems like Gaiman can be shown to be guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. This is also true of Josh Whedon, Bill Cosby, and Kevin Spacey, and above all Marion Zimmer Bradley.
Accused figures against whom the evidence is less airtight include Arthur C. Clarke and to a degree Michael Jackson. I happen to think Clarke is guilty and am utterly confused by the Jackson case.
Jackson settled out of court in a civil suit, was found innocent in a criminal trial, and while it seems more likely than not that he abused children, the HBO documentary "Leaving Neverland" had all kinds of phoney stuff in it. He certainly fits the psychological profile of an abuser, but there is just enough ambiguity that some people may choose to believe he is innocent.
Regarding espionage, historians have come to believe Alger Hiss was both guilty and(!!) framed. I think the HBO documentary on Jackson is fraudulent, but he might be like Alger Hiss in this regard.
You have to have a well-honed sense of what is reliable evidence and reliable sources. I think I retain some sense due to both having an uncle who was a criminal lawyer, and a father who was a professor (although I disagreed with several of his opinions) and who wrote a lot about how historians work.
Frequently when one has a lot of evidence, there is still room for multiple opinions but some views can be ruled out.
The basic legal distinction between "proof beyond reasonable doubt" (required for criminal cases) and "preponderance of the evidence" (required for civil cases) remains I think fairly valid.
A friend of mine recently said "I don't know where the truth is, but I definitely know where the lies are".
Lying has become much more common in today's society.
I used to be an avid MZB reader. I particularly loved her Darkover series but also enjoyed Mists. But when I learned about the abuse allegations it soured my memories and I wouldn't read them again these days. I certainly wouldn't take them as a template for spiritual practice. I do recognise that there are people who can enjoy an artist's work even if the artist themselves was vile. Take Picasso for example. Knowing he abused women, I would no longer visit an exhibition of his work or buy anything with a print of his work on it. You'd think that his work should be worthless, wouldn't you? Surprises me that it is still valuable.
I didn't know about the abuse either but adored the book. It was my introduction to the goddess. When I did finally hear about it I was astonished at my own naivety. I grew up in world where I knew nothing about sexual abuse so it went right over my head. By the time I did learn about the controversy that was no longer the case. The very thought of it makes me sick to my stomach.
I will say this- in the last few years I have learned that behaviors I thought were normal were actually abusive. That's how brainwashed a lot of women were back in the 70's and 80's.
I think that it's still hard for people to really take on board the reality of a woman sexually abusing children. It may even be that some of the deniers are refusing to recognize abuse in their own lives. Maybe abuse on a lesser scale.
I also think there are a lot of people not willing to give up what gives them comfort, pleasure or their beliefs for the sake of the vulnerable.
It's really difficult to see people still defending The Mists of Avalon without acknowledging the incredibly disturbing truth about the author, Marion Zimmer Bradley. As a sexual assault survivor, it’s especially triggering to watch people dismiss the reality of her abuse toward her own children and others, especially when that abuse was reflected in her writing. Survivors, like me, don’t ask for much. Just a little empathy and understanding, especially when it comes to the promotion of works by known abusers. It’s not about banning books or limiting choices, but about recognizing the harm in treating these works as sacred or untouchable. Thank you for speaking up!
Oh Kelle I am with you and you are definitely not the only one, it’s the first thing I talk about when I teach about Avalonian tradition. I think it needs a new book and believe I have plenty ideas but I’m not a fiction writer. Anyways, I make it part of my work to help people decondition from the mists of Avalon as it actually lets them stay in the illusion of what Avalon is and leads to compartmentalisation of spirituality instead of integrated, lived and embodied devotion. It’s exactly as you say, as goddess tradition the children should be our biggest treasure!!!!! Phew. ‘I will do what I want and don't come crying to me if you're triggered' unfortunately such a real stupid thing at the moment.
Yes! MZB’s bullshit really pervades the worldview of Mists & i would not base a spiritual practice on it. The world of Mists is brutal and cruel beyond the historical — it’s brutal in the ways the priestesses & devotees of the goddess treat one another. I don’t know how people consistently overlook this. I would expect more love, tenderness, and understanding, accountability, growth and vulnerability in any character or person whose spiritual practice is earth or goddess-based.
I think the overlook it because it’s our societal norm and so it doesn’t even occur to people that it could be different. The ingrained witch wound/suppression and distortion of feminine power and internalised patriarchal patterns are strong. Once you look out of this box you can see it but many are still stuck within. That’s why I think it’s so important to bridge them, help them understand and see
I’m not a victim of child abuse but never ever in a million years would I consider promoting anything created by an abuser. Particularly if it contained stories of child abuse. And I’m deeply sorry for the way you’ve been treated. You deserve better.
I got to the child abuse scene and stopped reading after it was recommended to me. I went online and saw the allegations. I was perplexed at how popular the book still is. Thank you for sharing your point of view as I feel more validated.
I agree with you 100% TBH I was already a little eye rolly at people taking their spiritual practice from a fantasy author - it felt like pagan Scientology to me but who am I (an atheist pagan) to judge.
I had no idea about the abuse.
The child abuse takes this to another level. To me it seems impossible to develop a healthy spiritual practice based on the works of a serial child abuser. That was in her heart and in her worldview, it seems impossible that evil will not somehow corrupt any practice derived from it.
Also why is ‘you are triggered’ an insult now? It’s like I want to say ‘yes I do have a functional limbic system / emotional system that reacts appropriately to children being abused.’
Thank you for your comment 💜 Im a naturalist, always nice to meet other Pagans who dont identify as polytheists. (Not that theres anything wrong with being a polytheist, I just sometimes feel like Im in a minority of one.)
Thank you. I’ve worked in the interpersonal violence field since 1976 and continue to be distressed at the lack of awareness and empathy for victims and survivors.
Sickening how easily so many people will choose to defend abusers over listening to survivors.. our culture is so deeply infected by these wounds, and it is so prolific in spiritual spaces that it makes it feel impossible sometimes to believe that humanity is anything but doomed. I'm so glad there are people such as yourself speaking out. I pray more people learn to listen.
I had this book sitting on my book shelf for ages and wanted to read it after so many women were praising it. Once I hear the daughter's story I got rid of it immediately. I even remember these women telling me I needed to separate the author from the story and still “enjoy” it. Well, no thanks 😒
Wow! I never read the mists of Avalon, only know the Arthurian legends from the movies and tv but this is very disgusting to think the author was committing such heinous trauma and crimes on children!
I think ignoring this is dangerous as subconsciously it’s accepting these behaviours - whatever happened to boycotting something to make a point. The problem with today’s world is that hardly anyone “stands for something” anymore. There lies the danger cause without one’s personal virtues and moral codes, you stand to fall for everything
I can understand why people wouldn’t want to abandon every aspect of something that spoke to them, but to gaslight and/or ignore abuse is what gets me. Don’t let something made by someone else be so important/essential to you that you abandon your empathy for the vulnerable. Make a better fanfiction. Or create something new.
The debate over whether an artist’s art should be considered in the context of their actions and crimes is so weird to me. Can someone really watch a Woody Allen film now and not think of his grossness? Or listen to Michael Jackson and disregard his perverseness? And the list goes on and on. I for one, cannot, and I think that until we are unwilling as a society to be complicit in our failures to protect children and to disavow all sexual crimes, this debate will continue. I think it says something about our collective willingness to sweep things under the rug. Which we do in all kinds of ways. But which never serves our integrity.
100% it’s just like the spiritual bypassing bullshit when a so-called guru or spiritual leaders gets caught being an abuser and I hear honor the teachings not the teacher, they’re just human. Bullshit. I called someone out on this yesterday. If the teachings are good and graceful and someone has been studying them for decades and teaching them, yet still cannot act in accord and not cause harm than the teachings are either not very good or made up by the abuser to attract people.,
So much this
I hate how people celebrate Michael Jackson and still play his music like nothing's happened...
Many of these simply choose to believe he is not guilty.
https://www.vulture.com/article/neil-gaiman-allegations-controversy-amanda-palmer-sandman-madoc.html
yes, it seems like Gaiman can be shown to be guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. This is also true of Josh Whedon, Bill Cosby, and Kevin Spacey, and above all Marion Zimmer Bradley.
Accused figures against whom the evidence is less airtight include Arthur C. Clarke and to a degree Michael Jackson. I happen to think Clarke is guilty and am utterly confused by the Jackson case.
Jackson settled out of court in a civil suit, was found innocent in a criminal trial, and while it seems more likely than not that he abused children, the HBO documentary "Leaving Neverland" had all kinds of phoney stuff in it. He certainly fits the psychological profile of an abuser, but there is just enough ambiguity that some people may choose to believe he is innocent.
Regarding espionage, historians have come to believe Alger Hiss was both guilty and(!!) framed. I think the HBO documentary on Jackson is fraudulent, but he might be like Alger Hiss in this regard.
Honestly, how can we ever know anything—especially in this day and age. 🤷
You have to have a well-honed sense of what is reliable evidence and reliable sources. I think I retain some sense due to both having an uncle who was a criminal lawyer, and a father who was a professor (although I disagreed with several of his opinions) and who wrote a lot about how historians work.
Frequently when one has a lot of evidence, there is still room for multiple opinions but some views can be ruled out.
The basic legal distinction between "proof beyond reasonable doubt" (required for criminal cases) and "preponderance of the evidence" (required for civil cases) remains I think fairly valid.
A friend of mine recently said "I don't know where the truth is, but I definitely know where the lies are".
Lying has become much more common in today's society.
Good question.
I think they will be forgotten despite their talents. I don't listen to Jackson and don't watch Allen movies....
I used to be an avid MZB reader. I particularly loved her Darkover series but also enjoyed Mists. But when I learned about the abuse allegations it soured my memories and I wouldn't read them again these days. I certainly wouldn't take them as a template for spiritual practice. I do recognise that there are people who can enjoy an artist's work even if the artist themselves was vile. Take Picasso for example. Knowing he abused women, I would no longer visit an exhibition of his work or buy anything with a print of his work on it. You'd think that his work should be worthless, wouldn't you? Surprises me that it is still valuable.
I didn't even know about Picasso, I know nothing about art. Wow.
I didn't know about the abuse either but adored the book. It was my introduction to the goddess. When I did finally hear about it I was astonished at my own naivety. I grew up in world where I knew nothing about sexual abuse so it went right over my head. By the time I did learn about the controversy that was no longer the case. The very thought of it makes me sick to my stomach.
I will say this- in the last few years I have learned that behaviors I thought were normal were actually abusive. That's how brainwashed a lot of women were back in the 70's and 80's.
I think that it's still hard for people to really take on board the reality of a woman sexually abusing children. It may even be that some of the deniers are refusing to recognize abuse in their own lives. Maybe abuse on a lesser scale.
I also think there are a lot of people not willing to give up what gives them comfort, pleasure or their beliefs for the sake of the vulnerable.
We've still a long, long way to go.
I dont think that the backlash to Victorian repression,and the sexual revolution, has anything to do with child abuse.
It's really difficult to see people still defending The Mists of Avalon without acknowledging the incredibly disturbing truth about the author, Marion Zimmer Bradley. As a sexual assault survivor, it’s especially triggering to watch people dismiss the reality of her abuse toward her own children and others, especially when that abuse was reflected in her writing. Survivors, like me, don’t ask for much. Just a little empathy and understanding, especially when it comes to the promotion of works by known abusers. It’s not about banning books or limiting choices, but about recognizing the harm in treating these works as sacred or untouchable. Thank you for speaking up!
Thank you for doing the same x
Oh Kelle I am with you and you are definitely not the only one, it’s the first thing I talk about when I teach about Avalonian tradition. I think it needs a new book and believe I have plenty ideas but I’m not a fiction writer. Anyways, I make it part of my work to help people decondition from the mists of Avalon as it actually lets them stay in the illusion of what Avalon is and leads to compartmentalisation of spirituality instead of integrated, lived and embodied devotion. It’s exactly as you say, as goddess tradition the children should be our biggest treasure!!!!! Phew. ‘I will do what I want and don't come crying to me if you're triggered' unfortunately such a real stupid thing at the moment.
Oh I'm so glad you're doing that work 😍
Yes! MZB’s bullshit really pervades the worldview of Mists & i would not base a spiritual practice on it. The world of Mists is brutal and cruel beyond the historical — it’s brutal in the ways the priestesses & devotees of the goddess treat one another. I don’t know how people consistently overlook this. I would expect more love, tenderness, and understanding, accountability, growth and vulnerability in any character or person whose spiritual practice is earth or goddess-based.
I think the overlook it because it’s our societal norm and so it doesn’t even occur to people that it could be different. The ingrained witch wound/suppression and distortion of feminine power and internalised patriarchal patterns are strong. Once you look out of this box you can see it but many are still stuck within. That’s why I think it’s so important to bridge them, help them understand and see
I’m not a victim of child abuse but never ever in a million years would I consider promoting anything created by an abuser. Particularly if it contained stories of child abuse. And I’m deeply sorry for the way you’ve been treated. You deserve better.
Thank you 💕
I got to the child abuse scene and stopped reading after it was recommended to me. I went online and saw the allegations. I was perplexed at how popular the book still is. Thank you for sharing your point of view as I feel more validated.
Thank you 💕
I agree with you 100% TBH I was already a little eye rolly at people taking their spiritual practice from a fantasy author - it felt like pagan Scientology to me but who am I (an atheist pagan) to judge.
I had no idea about the abuse.
The child abuse takes this to another level. To me it seems impossible to develop a healthy spiritual practice based on the works of a serial child abuser. That was in her heart and in her worldview, it seems impossible that evil will not somehow corrupt any practice derived from it.
Also why is ‘you are triggered’ an insult now? It’s like I want to say ‘yes I do have a functional limbic system / emotional system that reacts appropriately to children being abused.’
Thank you for your comment 💜 Im a naturalist, always nice to meet other Pagans who dont identify as polytheists. (Not that theres anything wrong with being a polytheist, I just sometimes feel like Im in a minority of one.)
Thank you. I’ve worked in the interpersonal violence field since 1976 and continue to be distressed at the lack of awareness and empathy for victims and survivors.
Sickening how easily so many people will choose to defend abusers over listening to survivors.. our culture is so deeply infected by these wounds, and it is so prolific in spiritual spaces that it makes it feel impossible sometimes to believe that humanity is anything but doomed. I'm so glad there are people such as yourself speaking out. I pray more people learn to listen.
Thank you 💕
Oh my, I had no idea of the allegations. Thanks for sharing, puts a whole new slant on it.
I also had not heard about them.
I had this book sitting on my book shelf for ages and wanted to read it after so many women were praising it. Once I hear the daughter's story I got rid of it immediately. I even remember these women telling me I needed to separate the author from the story and still “enjoy” it. Well, no thanks 😒
Wow! I never read the mists of Avalon, only know the Arthurian legends from the movies and tv but this is very disgusting to think the author was committing such heinous trauma and crimes on children!
I think ignoring this is dangerous as subconsciously it’s accepting these behaviours - whatever happened to boycotting something to make a point. The problem with today’s world is that hardly anyone “stands for something” anymore. There lies the danger cause without one’s personal virtues and moral codes, you stand to fall for everything
Thankfully there are many other books exploring the King Arthur legends
Notice hardly anyone is coming out against Neil Gaiman? SO many Pagans fangirl him...
Thank you for this. It needs to be said, over and over again, until people finally listen.
I can understand why people wouldn’t want to abandon every aspect of something that spoke to them, but to gaslight and/or ignore abuse is what gets me. Don’t let something made by someone else be so important/essential to you that you abandon your empathy for the vulnerable. Make a better fanfiction. Or create something new.